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Welcome to Three for the Founders, where Brotherhood meets the Breakdown. We’ve been having these conversations for years, and now YOU are invited to join us. We’ll say the things you are afraid to say, and ask the questions you want to ask. Three brothers. All truth. No filters.

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Three for the Founders

Ep. 38 - It Does Matter If You’re Black or White!

April 13, 2026 • Jon Augustine, Lybroan James, Reynaldo Macías • Season 2 • Episode 38

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"It Does Matter If You're Black or White" Three for the Founders | Episode 38 | April 13, 2026 | 1 hr. 11 min.

The best episodes of Three for the Founders do what the best public radio rarely does anymore: they hold two enormous ideas in the same room without forcing a tidy resolution. Episode 38 is exactly that kind of hour.

Lybroan James returns from a Homecoming trip to Ghana — led by Courageous Conversation architect Glenn Singleton — carrying something that doesn't compress easily into a trip report. Standing at the Door of No Return, tracing the final steps of the transatlantic passage, and being formally welcomed into the Apariti tribe, he wrestles with what it means to be received as home in a place American propaganda insists doesn't want you. Meanwhile, Jon Augustine walks into a white affinity space at the SoCal POCIS conference for the first time — and what he finds there is less a conversation than a symptom: orderly, earnest, intellectualized, and curiously disconnected from the soul happening loudly across the hall.

The juxtaposition is the argument. Ghana's cultural economy — its communal rituals, its marketplace logic, its vision of African diaspora return as an economic and spiritual corrective — becomes a lens through which to interrogate why white affinity spaces so often struggle to produce the belonging they're designed to cultivate. The hosts don't belabor the thesis; they trust the resonance. Antonio's framing is sharp: community before content. Jon's hibachi analogy lands. And Lybroan's account of cocoa trade inequity and a UN resolution the United States voted against lingers longer than it should have to.

Three for the Founders continues to earn its place in the crowded podcast landscape not by shouting, but by thinking — out loud, together, and in real time.

Thanks for joining us. Still got questions? Other things to say? Hit us up at Three for the Founders on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, or TikTok and let us know. Til the next time...left on founders...we out!

SPEAKER_07 0:00

So, you know, just a lot of people.

SPEAKER_03 0:01

What was the situation where someone pointed out that you're the Ibo tribe from Nigeria? What happened?

SPEAKER_07 0:07

It's amazing. So in Africa, man, the people look at you and they can tell by your features where you're from. So every time we would go somewhere, they go, ha, you're Nigerian. Huh? No, no, I'm from San Diego. No. No, no. You're not from San Diego. You're Nigerian. You're from the Ibo tribe. So after about the fourth or fifth time I heard this, I'm like, whoa, this must be the case. Even the Ghanaians, like, yeah, bro, you you Ibo.

SPEAKER_03 0:33

We still down with you, but you Ibo. Right, right. It's profiling of another kind. Like we know. I mean, it's it's it's benign. They're just identifying features. It's positive racial profiles. It's positive profiling. They're like, but then they're like, are you do you know so-and-so? Because he owes me money. He's from the Igbo tribe. There's a little bit of that happening. But it's a little more benign. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_05 0:55

So we're brothers. We're happy and we're singing and we're colored.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

Give me a high five. Alright, cut and print. Beautiful guys. Dynomite. That is.

SPEAKER_07 1:13

Welcome to Three for the Founders, where brotherhood meets the breakdown. We've been having these conversations for years, and now you are invited to join us. We'll say the things you are afraid to say and ask the questions you've always wanted to ask. Three brothers, all truth, no filters.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

Let's go. So uh that's a Germany uh football jersey, I should say. Soccer? Yeah, footballer. Footballer.

SPEAKER_07 1:41

Football and jersey.

SPEAKER_03 1:42

Okay, what's the occasion?

SPEAKER_07 1:45

Uh just got back from working out, so I had to quick take a quick shower and then throw something on. I'm like, okay, here we go. That's it.

SPEAKER_03 1:51

Exactly. There's the academic man. There he is. Professor. Oh, having his dinner right in front of us. There him is. There him is. The alpha male always eats first, man. And we have to sit there and watch and wait for the scraps. Yep. Uh-huh.

unknown 2:09

I bet.

SPEAKER_07 2:12

Obediate. Oh, yes. What's funny though is the thing now is to be a Sigma man. You used to be alpha male. Now all in the schools, being a Sigma is now the current thing. Like that's the coolest thing you could be. Oh, damn. Hi. Welcome to Three for the Founders.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Yeah, man. Oh. That being said. That being said. So I had a I had a few. Um the cod and boudé was delicious. Uh and ginger ale is good. Uh I have a t-shirt on, but it's not appropriate even for the podcast. Well, I'll show it to you. Hold on.

SPEAKER_03 2:50

After hours. Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_07 2:58

Man, that is a classic. I love that one.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

So they got that for me, I think, last Christmas. I was like, oh, look what I'm wearing. They're like, you should wear it on the pod. I was like, it's not, it's not the vibe. It's true, but it's not the vibe. It's not the vibe. But it is true. Right. It's not a kerfuffle. No doubt. My goal for the first part of our recording today was to hear your two stories because uh there have been numerous opportunities for us to talk, and yet, LeBron, you did homecoming and you went to Ghana. I would love to hear all about that. John, uh, we talked a little while ago um about affinity spaces, and you had some consternation. And then when we went to SoCalposas, you actually got to participate in a white affinity space. And so I want to hear about that because I had a homecoming of my own. Right. Episode 38. Today's title is Um It Does Matter If You're Black or White, because without any further ado, LeBron. Yes, sir. Why did you go to Ghana? How did you go to Ghana? What was that like? As Ghana just filed this report, uh, just got this resolution passed in the United Nations, yes, recognizing the international slave trade as the gravest crime against humanity in history.

SPEAKER_07 4:34

Yes. 126 countries agreed, three countries did not. Tell us who those countries were, LeBron. Who would not think chattel slavery was the greatest crime of inhumanity? Argentina. Okay. Random United States of Slavery. And of course, our favorite Israel. Now, why would those three vote no? Why can they just be like good racist people like the Europeans and abstain? I can even go for that. But they actually voted no. That's like, I mean, imagine if we said, okay, the Holocaust was a big backyard barbecue. How many people agree?

SPEAKER_06 5:19

Wouldn't they be offended? Wouldn't they be offended? Yes. So now you understand how Israel looks for voting no against chattel slavery. But I digress.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

That's not even a digression. It really is. I I had the same feeling. I I didn't have the backyard barbecue metaphor. But um I was like, I I like that they said it with their whole chest. Yeah, they basically said y'all, we're not doing anything for you. And all of those cowards in the European Union, like, what is an abstention? It's a I want to vote no, I just don't want to look bad. Yeah, it's like people in the House of Representatives who vote present. Like, good. I'm glad that you're there.

SPEAKER_03 6:13

Thanks for breathing. Exactly. Okay, thanks. Anyway, so any justification given for the stance taken by the U.S. Argentina and Israel?

SPEAKER_07 6:24

Self-evident. If you vote no, we know who you are.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

The the the justification that I've witnessed was that in the resolution, it called for restitution, and they, you know, managed to get their panties in a bunch about it. And then calling it the gravest crime. Yes. And I was like, oh, this, so it's about the superlative. We're gonna do oppression Olympics? Because that's not a real thing. Right, right, right. That's the language that they use when they drafted it. And you're saying, well, it's not the gravest crime. You're like, hold my beer.

SPEAKER_03 7:05

Yeah. I mean, because I'm always when something is as outrageous as this and as absurd, I always want to have someone explain themselves. Would you please explain your position? And like you, LeBron, you say it's evident. It is, but I'm still filling in blanks for somebody. If they are saying that with their whole chest, then come out and explain why you said no. We could I would respect Say more.

SPEAKER_07 7:30

Boom. Thank you. More. Say more. Yes. We'll come back to that.

SPEAKER_03 7:39

So ask for Ghana. So then so a cu you went the wrong direction, LeBron. I thought your people only went from Ghana to the United States.

SPEAKER_07 7:47

I I did the moonwalk. Let me take it back home. Because white people always said, Why don't you go back home? I'm like, you're right, white people, I will. So I hooked up with our fraternity brother Glenn Singleton, who does an amazing homecoming every year for 40 to 50 people. He has a great curated experience. And it's called homecoming because Ghana, as a country, wants all people from the African diaspora to come back home, to re-explore your roots, to understand the journey and the situation that took place before people were abducted and taken to other lands as property. And so this I've been planning to go on this trip for three years. I finally went this past December into this new year, and it was the most amazing experience of my life. I thought when I went to Egypt and saw the pyramids, that was like my math, you know, dream to go there and study that. Then Morocco was great, but Ghana, it was amazing because everywhere I went, people were saying, Hey, where are you from? I said, From America. I said, Oh, welcome home. I'm like, huh? Because people in America told me that people in Africa don't like African Americans and they don't get along. And so all this propaganda, and I had a great experience. And I'm like, that's not what I've been told. And what I'm experiencing is something totally different. And then we went and we we I learned that if you look at the longitude and latitude for the planet, Ghana is in the center of the earth based on the longitude and latitude. It's the place closest to the center of the earth. So they always say, come home to the center of the earth, which I thought was interesting. And then I also didn't know that Ghana is like the second largest producer of cocoa in the world. And so the best chocolate comes out of Ghana. But here's here's how the colonizers get them. They won't let them produce the chocolate with their beans, they make them sell the beans to European countries for cheap. European countries process it, turns it into product, and then sells it back at 10 times the cost of which they paid for the beans. But now they're they're Ghana's like, we're gonna just go ahead and produce their own chocolates. But you know, what was which was interesting was that going to the the door of no return, which is the the most powerful part of the trip, where you go and see where Africans go through this spiral staircase down to the bottom, you go through the door and then you get onto a boat. Like you have no idea what's on the other side of that door, and it's the door of no return. So the part that freaked me out was first they take you to go have your last bath. So you go to this place where the where a river splits, and they take you to the shallow part of the river because they're afraid if you go to the deeper part, you'll get away. And so we get these tree leaves, they get these tree leaves, and they have like little sharp spikes at the end. And so they would whip them with that to clean them, and they're just ripping their skin off and they're bleeding.

SPEAKER_03 11:03

Baobob, B-A-O-B-A-B, Baobob trees. There you go. Yes. It's like a lot of the super thick trunk, and then on top of the bottom, yes.

SPEAKER_07 11:11

There you go. Yep. Yeah, yeah. And so after you get whipped whipped, which is supposed to be your last bath with these, then they have to walk like 50 miles to the point of no return. So it's like a week trip or something. They walk there and then they're put put into the uh into these tunnels with 60 people in this one room, no windows, no air, pitch black, dark. And and it's just uh it's a crazy experience. But people have to see what these people endure, which was which is why this was definitely the most inhumane thing I can ever imagine. And now I understand why Israel did not, why they voted no. Because when we were there at the slave castles, there were two doors, black doors, and both of them had a Star of David carved into them from back in the 1600s, 1700s, because it was the Jewish people who financed slavery. They financed the ships, they were the insurance agents for the ships, so they couldn't do slave trade without the financing. So they didn't get their hands dirty, but they had dirty money. And so when I learned learned all this and saw the actual, they still had to starve David Carpenter to the doors, I asked asked the uh tour guy, what is this? And he explained it. So so many people had their hands in this. And the last thing I'll say about that is in my mind, I always said, How did a few white people come and take all these Africans? I just couldn't figure out, like it didn't make sense. But what was happening is that Ghana was trading with European countries for hundreds of years. There were friendly trade going on, they would come get gold from Ghana, diamonds, uh, rare, rare minerals. And then the Europeans would bring alcohol and gunpowder and weapons. So after hundreds of years of slaves, of trade, hundreds of years of trade, then they said, hmm, we need something else. We need their bodies. So what they would do is they would come and they would kidnap people in the middle of the night and bring them to the castle and hide them. So it was years, and people like, wow, what people are being missing. What's going on? So after they finally figured out after years what was happening, then the Europeans told the kings, look, we can make you rich and you tell your people to chill and we'll we'll keep the slaves and we'll keep it in slavery. Then the king was like, No, I'm not. Okay, then we'll kill you and your family. So either take this money and let us keep doing it, or we'll kill you and your family and we'll keep doing it. So the king took the money and they kept doing it. So he was wrong. So when they say that Africans participated in slave trade on the surface, yes. Because when when nations were fighting, whoever lost, the losing soldiers would have to be enslaved. But it was not chattel slavery. It was like an endangered servant. So even the kings who sold the people into slavery had no idea what was happening after they got off the boat. And after they got on the boat. After they got on the boat. And the people rebelled so much that when the boats would first leave the dock, you would see hundreds of sharks on either side because most people jumped off. So the sharks knew when feeding time was. When the boats came out, all the sharks came. So you just knew I'm jumping off, I'm about to get eaten by a shark, but I'm not going wherever this boat is going. Today's. And so people just don't know the amount of rebellion that happened. They just think people got on. It was only a few that actually made it, made it to the Americas.

SPEAKER_03 15:05

Yeah, but I mean, even by the time they get to that is it like a fortress that you're talking about?

SPEAKER_07 15:12

It was a fortress was like a trading outpost. On the cliffs. On the cliffs, right by the water, right on the beach. But they were trading outposts for hundreds of years that they turned into um slate uh sort of outlets where they where they can.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

And I mean, these were not for the most part, these were not people from Ghana, right? These are people from from other places.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

Ghana didn't exist. Yeah, what was it? So you have different kingdoms and you have people within that geographic.

SPEAKER_07 15:41

Within that geography. And then you have to understand, too, you're like, well, why didn't why wasn't there more rebellion? Because there's a hundred different languages spoken in Ghana. These are tribal people. So someone created these false borders. Right. So if the three of us got kidnapped and we we come from different cultures and different languages, and we might have been beefing, who knows? Right. So how do you communicate and you you're having the same common experience? But I can't communicate with you, and we were just fighting last week. So it's it's complex.

SPEAKER_03 16:17

Yeah, by the time they even got to that fortress, I mean so many people had already died of pestilence and starvation or running away.

SPEAKER_07 16:23

Yeah, you know. But the beautiful thing about Ghana now is it's welcoming everybody back from the diaspora. So they they're giving citizenship to African people. Their president is saying, look, come here, black Americans, start businesses. We need every business you can imagine. We need it. We need all the services, we need everything. So Africa has one of the youngest, it's one of the youngest continents on the planet. So it's gonna be the economy, it's gonna be what China is now. That's what Africa is gonna be in the next 50, 50 to 75 years, according to top economists. So they're saying come come live here, create businesses, and and help, help own it. So it's it's a beautiful thing. So I'm I'm I'm looking forward to going back in the next year or two for sure and see how I can help participate and get more people there to have that experience.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

Are you going with Glenn?

SPEAKER_07 17:19

I'm going with Glenn. In fact, I I joined a tribe, the Apariti tribe in Ghana. So I got my new name and I was welcomed in by the chief and went through the ceremony. So now I'm trying to help invest and grow that village. So I'm going to be offering education, math services, and everything, anything else I can to help grow that village. But then I want to help create more of a homecoming dialogue, a connection between the United States and Ghana to help build, help build their economy.

SPEAKER_03 17:52

Damn. So you got taken out to the bush by the elders and got circumcised? Damn, bro. You went through the whole thing. You know, if you cry, you bring shame on your family, bro. So you gotta sit there.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Oh, you can't. You're gonna love then just be ashamed. Then just be ashamed. You're gonna love them.

SPEAKER_07 18:12

So I'm at the ceremony and then they start dancing, right? I was like, oh, look at the rhythm. And then say, oh, you can't dance. I was like, what's up? They said, the tradition is you have to know how to dance the way they dance. They said, back in the day, people would come, the Europeans would come, and they they would try to dance. And if you didn't have rhythm, they cut your head off right there. So they would kill you for not knowing how to dance.

SPEAKER_03 18:36

Bro, you just described my pledging process of the five bit of sigma.

SPEAKER_07 18:41

The one in three is real. So you have to know how to dance. And some dude went there in front of the the queen mother, and he was dancing. He did some move that some nasty move, like wiped his feet off, and that was disrespectful. So they were gonna kill him, but they said, Okay, we don't kill anymore. We've advanced. You owe us a hundred goats, uh, give us your wife and your your first two kids, and we'll let you live. This was recently? Yeah, like probably the last 40, 50 years.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 19:14

Damn. They don't play with that rhythm. I was like, oh, that that black thing is real. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Guess I won't be dancing. Um so you said you said it took you three years.

SPEAKER_07 19:24

Was that you saving up or it was the not so much the saving up, but just circumstances of life because it's from December 26th through January 6th.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

And so just It's always at that time period.

SPEAKER_07 19:38

Yes. For the homecoming, because they want you to experience New Year's where the whole country wears white. It's the most amazing thing to see everyone in a in a in the cities where you would drive for four or five hours, everyone's in white. And if someone, if someone there's a death, everyone wears black and red for like 40 days. That everything is ceremonial, everything has meaning. Everything you do, there's a reason, a historical reason and tradition behind it. That part is what blew me away the most. Yeah. Was it hot, cold? What it was like 85 to 88 degrees every day.

SPEAKER_03 20:14

Nice.

SPEAKER_07 20:15

Uh in December.

SPEAKER_03 20:17

Is that southern hemisphere? Is it below the equator, Connor? It's right in the middle.

SPEAKER_07 20:20

It's like at the middle. Yep. Longitude, latitude, it's like right almost as close to the equator as any other part of the country. Uh a part of the world.

SPEAKER_03 20:30

So it's like short days then, too, huh? Like the the sun goes down pretty early. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

Yeah. Was is this something that Glenn got connected with, or is this something that I guess I'm always, as I'm right looking at things, there are things that were done traditionally, and there are things that are celebrated. And sometimes the things that are done traditionally are those things that are celebrated. And sometimes there are traditions that are created in homage to, right? So we've talked about Juneteenth and where that comes from. Yes. Right? We've talked about Memorial Day and where that comes from, decoration day. And so I'm just curious with this, is when I say is this something that Glenn is doing, or is this something that Glenn got connected to? Like how much of what you were doing is on the on the trip was designed to have an impact, and how much of it is actually traditional?

SPEAKER_07 21:40

That is a great question. So one, I don't know Glenn's total story. I know he's been going to Ghana for quite some time, almost probably at least 10 years. So in his um trips to Ghana, he got connected to this particular village. And he went through more of a ceremonial. Thing so like he's like on the on the council, so to say, and his job for that village is to bring people back home. That's what his sort of his job. And then he just has gone to all the different things around Ghana that are the most traditional, most impactful, and he just curated a trip to make sure everyone has this curated experiences of these things so that you go to Ghana and they go ask, Did you do this? And you'd be like, Yeah, I did. Like, oh, you should have done this. Oh no, no, we did that too. So keep in mind, though, there are I would say hundreds of people who do Ghana trips. They're huge. He's not the only one. There's hundreds, yeah. You know what I mean? I'm just saying, of course, I know Glenn, and he does always everything at the highest, most professional level. So the people he had there were Ghanaians who drove us around, interpreted for us, negotiated for us. So if you'd want something, they're like, we'll go do it on your behalf so that you don't get gaffled as a tourist. You don't know the traditions, how to what to say, you know. Like, so we're we're leaving there's kids in the street trying to sell things like in any any poor, you know, impoverished. They're trying to, and so we are waving to them, and then more kids start coming. And then the tour guy goes, What are you doing? No, yes, you don't wave. That means come here.

SPEAKER_03 23:26

Oh huh.

SPEAKER_07 23:27

So you can't wave. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. That's cool, man. Yeah, man. It's it was wonderful. How long were you there? I was there uh 10 days. No, 12 days. I was there 12 days. Yeah. And it was uh it was amazing, man. The food was incredible. I mean, just here's one thing I'll say. They don't have banks, you can't get personal loans in Ghana. Blew me away. I'm like, because you're driving through, you'll see this super nice, it looks like Santa Monica or Central City, and then you'll see all these like a third world where everything is half built, you know, half made. I'm like, what's with the poverty? Right next to stuff that's so nice. They said, no, LeBron, you can't get bank loans in Ghana. So everything is cash. So you'll save up money for a couple years and you'll build the first level of your house, and then you go back to work, and you may take you another two or three years to then build the second level. Because there's no loans. I said, Well, what about people who rent? They said, Oh, when you rent in Ghana, you have to pay two years up front before you move in. Yeah. I was like, So either way, it's pay as you go. There you go. It's pay as you go. Which is an interesting thing.

SPEAKER_03 24:43

So our in the marketplace, you're you're dealing in cash, obviously. Like and and your your chaperones were were uh like haggling on your behalf?

SPEAKER_07 24:53

Yeah, they sure would. Okay, you have to negotiate. If you take the first price that's given, that's disrespectful. Because they want you, they want it to be fair for you and for them. So it's only fair if we go back and forth and then meet somewhere in the middle. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:12

If you take Was it animated too, or was it kind of calm negotiations? Did it depend?

SPEAKER_07 25:17

Well, with me, they looked at me like, oh, I'm gonna get him. And then my intermediary, you know, they would go back and forth. I'm like, are y'all arguing? And then they come and smile and be like, okay, LeBron, I got it for you. We good. So I'm like, wow. It's the culture is just different. And that's the same thing in Morocco. Like African culture is barter, it's the bartering system because that's traditionally how things are done. Yeah. Through bartering.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

But Morocco is in North Africa, and that's different than sub-Saharan Africa.

SPEAKER_07 25:52

Yes. You think it's not.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

It's not.

SPEAKER_07 25:59

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

So, the most important thing you learned.

SPEAKER_07 26:06

There you go. That's a better question. Whoa. The most important thing I've learned is that I don't believe somebody else's lying eyes. I believe what I experienced. And I've been told different things about different places, and when I get there, I have to have my own experience. And nine times out of ten is different than what I've been told. Because some people I just believe that if someone has a bad experience, either they were a bad person or had a bad day or ran into a bad person. And I don't label everyone based on someone's experience. I brought good energy and I was excited to be there and humble. So that's what I got back in return. But I do see a lot of people there who have this, and though they're black, they act American. And that would turn me off if I was Ghanaian. So when you come over, you say, Oh, I'm oppressed in America, blah, blah, blah. Then you get over there and you act like the people who oppressed you, don't be surprised if they don't like you then, which makes sense. And you think, oh, you don't like me because I'm a black, because I'm black American. No, no. I don't like you because you act an American. You acting arrogant. You acting like you are entitled. That's what they don't like. And who would? Yeah. Right. And that's anywhere in the world.

SPEAKER_03 27:33

Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. Did you have anyone like that in your group that's traveling that was acting a little entitled American-ish? No. Like I said, Glenn.

SPEAKER_07 27:42

Glenn's curated, bruh. Yes. You only have to you have to know someone to get Glenn, don't just take random people. You have to know someone. Because he'll always tell us, LeBron, you got to go recruit people because you've you know the experience, you know what we expect. Because he won't take people who who aren't referred.

SPEAKER_03 28:03

Yeah. Nice, man. That's cool. That's cool. Didn't the United States get beat by Ghana in the World Cup like 20 years ago or something? Remember that? It was like the second round of the World Cup and Ghana beat us. Yeah, oh yeah, that was crazy. People were really upset, and Ghana was going nuts. Nuts. So was that that area wasn't officially colonized by European, any European nation. It it stayed an independent state. No, it was traded. It was colonized.

SPEAKER_07 28:33

Our fraternity brother, um Kwame Nkrumah, is the one who liberated Ghana in 1971, I believe. That's when they earned their independence, but they were they were colonized.

SPEAKER_03 28:47

By the British?

SPEAKER_07 28:48

Sorry, that I'm not sure. I believe it was the British. British pretty much got everybody.

SPEAKER_03 28:52

So well, it was either England, Portuguese, or Spain. Those are the choices. Yeah, there you go. Well, you go far enough south, and it's the Germans and the Dutch. There you go. Thank you very much. Did I get it right, Antonio?

SPEAKER_01 29:02

I know your US history, but it's not by the So my understanding of the international slave trade and how Ghana Ghanaians participated in it is a little bit different than the what LeBron got. But we're all getting somebody's story. And so, you know, Ghanaians were actually importing enslaved people who were prisoners of war from the Portuguese before they were exporting people and the who were prisoners of war. And then there were a lot of enslaved people in the Netherlands and Spain and Portugal before chattel slavery and the international slave trade. And so I don't know to answer the questions you asked, not the one that I decided to answer. Whether it was I don't know whether it was the British or the French or the Dutch or the Portuguese or the Spanish who actually colonized uh what is now the the kingdom of the country of Ghana. Um but it was Kwame and Kruma, and I'm pretty sure you're right. It was 1971, because I remember reading that and going, hey, I was born that year. It's a good year to be born. Right. Um and so that liberation, he was also the one. No, Patrice Lumumba, who was 23?

SPEAKER_07 30:31

Patrice Lumumba was Congo, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

Right, but he yeah, I think I think when he kicked people out, like like he was 23 and he was sworn in, and then like a month later they took him out. Um but yeah. Ghana homecoming is always a big deal. I'm surprised you didn't go with my parents um since you go to Africa with my parents. Um I like going to Africa with your parents. Right, and they went to Ghana um a little while ago. Uh maybe with Glenn, but I don't I don't think it was. I don't know.

SPEAKER_07 31:03

It might have been another group, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

Yeah. Cool. But thank you. Thank you for sharing that. I was I was excited when you went and then to see the pictures. I I saw your New Year's New Year's Day, New Year's Eve pictures. In white. In white, yes. With some blue highlights because for um and so I really did want to hear about it. Much as I want to hear about uh being locked in a room with a bunch of white people. Yes, John spoke on it. All right, this is your way of avoiding.

SPEAKER_05 31:36

Can we talk? What?

SPEAKER_06 31:41

Oh, Demon, baby.

SPEAKER_05 31:48

Well, can we talk?

SPEAKER_03 31:50

Okay, that's a perfect segue, as a matter of fact, because at the POSIS conference, and let's make sure that people know, POSIS is P-O-C-I-S standing for people of color in independent schools.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

Color in Infinite Schools.

SPEAKER_03 32:04

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

SoCal POSIS. SoCal POSIS. People of color.

SPEAKER_03 32:10

A lot of independent schools. A lot of acronyming. Yeah. But at the uh at the conclusion of the event when there was a karaoke machine in a small room behind us with some alcohol flowing and some cans of alcohol that look like something tame, like a Bartles and James from Arte or a white claw of the modern era. Only to discover that was sneaky something. That it was Cisco. And not the thong, the thong, thong, thong Cisco. This is the 1980s smack you in the face alcohol content of, I don't know, 180 proof or something. Yeah, you're drinking it like beer. Anyway, but uh you all were the ones who got me in on the game. That can we talk Tevin Campbell is about as it's about as anthemic as you're gonna get in a black karaoke situation.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

You got the black version of Sweet Caroline. Of sweet Caroline, that was it. Who knows? Yes, the black sweet Caroline. So uh John, you were evident, you were recalcitrant, you were reluctant um to participate in White Affinity Space. Um but knowing that it was a safe space and that everyone there was an educator at Sophia Alposas, um or educator adjacent as as you yourself are. Um what was your experience? How did you feel when you realized that you were going to go in? Uh and you know, as we say in all affinity spaces, the the lessons can leave, but the stories need to stay. Uh because they belong to the individuals who tell them. And so there's a there's a um an anonymity to that and allows people to participate in positive ways. Um so speaking from the eye, Monique Marshall would be so proud of me right now. Speaking from the eye and taking the lessons, believing the stories. Um, what was your experience being locked in a room with a bunch of white people?

SPEAKER_03 34:21

That's just such a great question. What was your look at LeBron? He's just LeBron. Have you ever been locked in a room with a bunch of white people? And how'd it turn out for you? That's my day job. Harvard.

unknown 34:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

He went to Harvard.

SPEAKER_03 34:40

Before I answer my question about my experience that I went through, I have to ask you all this because the context that is gonna supplement your question, Antonio, is that the two of you went to a different affinity space during the same abbreviated session. By the way, it was supposed to be like an hour session originally, right? But it ended up being 15 minutes. 45 minutes.

unknown 35:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 35:05

It got squeezed to 15, 20 based on, you know. So um, so let me ask you all this.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Even in this conversation, he's hesitant to enter into the white room.

SPEAKER_03 35:17

Yes, John. Yes, I am, because I want to ask you all, describe in a few sentences what your affinity space was like. It's like every other affinity space that I've never been to, so please let people let me know what it's like because I'm on the outside.

SPEAKER_07 35:34

This is a short answer, John, but it says a lot. So you have to think about it. It was non-white.

SPEAKER_03 35:43

Okay. Fill in the blanks for me, bro. I just you had 20 minutes. You had 20 minutes. There was hugging. Probably. Some, you know, some some the people we know. The people you know, but there's the you know, the the casual grip of the the physical equivalent of the nod. No. Was there music? No. Okay, you're betraying me now because when you when I talked to you about this last time, you're like, oh man, our our our affinity group, they had the music going. We're like, it was on, it was live.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

So I will set the scene for you since you really don't want to talk about it. Um, I do. I'm just trying to provide a foil.

SPEAKER_00 36:27

Talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 36:28

There's no foil. That's the so that's part of the problem, right? There's no foil. What my experience was in the people of color affinity space has nothing to do with your experience in the white affinity space.

SPEAKER_03 36:44

Oh, but it does.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

The only thing I said to you was because there was uh some singing, and I went and I closed the door because the two affinity spaces were across the hall, and I didn't want to disrupt whatever was going on, but I've never been to a white affinity space, and I didn't want to have what was going on in our room impact what was going on in the other room.

SPEAKER_03 37:15

And so I came and I closed the door. That's precisely what I was looking for, Antonio. See, there was enough happening in the space that you were in that closing the door was necessary so as not to disturb people in the other space. And I'm saying whatever the opposite of that is, that's what was happening in our space. Okay, you had volume, we had quiet, we had, and that's all I know. This is what you've shared the volume. Listen, lovely people, engaged, uh in earnest, sincere, intelligent, six or seven of us, uh orderly. I, you know, the the truth is I was wrestling the with the feeling of being an outsider in general because I was invited as three for the founders to be part of a panel as a non-educator, and the whole day is about educators in this space. Now, there's a lot a lot of parallels I could find, and we talked about all these kinds of things. And, you know, I'm I'm good with any crowd. I can hang with most people. So I was having a good time, but I already felt like a little bit of an interloper just being in the space to begin with, because I don't really have much to add to the conversation. But it was, you know, it was very orderly. People went and I think the overwhelming sense was we don't have a lot of time, and we plan for more time than this. So we're gonna try to either cut out a butt as a bunch of stuff that we had planned to talk about, and and and in order to do that, just let's go around the room and have people talk about themselves and some of the things that they've learned. And so it was it was tame, it was it was orderly, it was short, and it was sincere. Um yeah, I don't I don't know what else to say but without saying what we did, because that would so it what you did isn't when I say the stories have to stay, but the lessons can go.

SPEAKER_01 39:19

The stories, my experience of affinity spaces is people speak from the eye. And in a lot of situations, they will talk about how they're feeling, what has happened at their schools, a situation that might be current, a situation that might be past. And so the stories have to stay, means that I'm not walking out and saying, Oh shit, did you hear LeBron was at school and some girl walked by and then he but it but and so the story is not leaving. It is about that, like I'm not telling your story, but the lessons, the activities, you know, yeah, that's not that's not a you're not telling a story, telling tales out of school.

SPEAKER_03 40:05

Well, and I don't even I wouldn't even have a story to tell. I mean, to be honest, the the the lead of the story in my head is we didn't have enough time to get into it. We do it's like and we and maybe this is the whitest thing that happens is everybody's looking at like their watch going, we only have three more minutes. Uh we only have two more minutes. We you know, the next thing is that so that that was my experience was all right, we only got 15 minutes, we're not really gonna get a whole lot, we're gonna try to say some cool things. I don't recall anything that uh stuck with me. Is there a other than the earnestness of everybody, they're like everybody was really earnest and want I want to help, I want to be an ally. There were some stories of you know the their own personal experiences with their administrations that would be typical as I try to try to pursue you know more equity and more justice and and but nothing that stuck with me other than these are really engaged and and earnest people trying to be allies in 15 minutes or less. In 15 minutes or less. I I feel like I'm disappointing you with this report. I don't have much to report other than I mean the the context. Let me let me back up. I shouldn't say that. I mean, you all know because we had a whole talk about this in a previous episode where I'm like, I'm never going to a white affinity space. This sounds like the most boring thing ever. And then thanks to you all coaxing me, like realizing, all right, there are people and I'm invited to another one that's happening, I think, in a couple weeks, Antonio. Thank you, Jillian.

SPEAKER_05 41:46

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:46

So I hope I couldn't go to the last one because of travel. I'm hoping to go to this one. And I will I will eagerly go to that, hoping that we have more than 15 minutes and we'll and that we'll have uh some good some good conversation. Um, but maybe this is more about the fact that I overcame my unwillingness to be a part of it because it sounded like, what in the world am I gonna do in a room with a bunch of white people? Like, what are we gonna talk about when it in the context of people of color in independent schools context? Um, so what I witnessed was people who were engaged, who were like, Yes, I'm trying. There, I'm in this school, I'm in that school, I'm trying to end. I was impressed by the people, very impressed by the people.

SPEAKER_07 42:25

Um but yeah, time was short. So so John, did you feel uncomfortable in this space? Or how did you how did you feel in that space?

SPEAKER_03 42:39

I felt I mean, dude, I'm comfortable almost everywhere I go. I know, that's why I'm wondering what you like sweating over there like a hoe in church.

SPEAKER_07 42:48

I'm like, what's going on?

SPEAKER_01 42:53

Sorry, that's always been the funniest thing I've ever heard.

SPEAKER_03 42:57

Sweating like a hoe in church. We still okay with the word hoe? Are we still throwing that word around?

SPEAKER_01 43:05

Uh sweating like a sex worker in church.

SPEAKER_03 43:08

It just doesn't have the same rhythm doesn't it.

SPEAKER_01 43:11

It sounds like she's working behind the pulpit. That's what it sounds like.

SPEAKER_03 43:15

She just might be history shows that she does. You know, I just I think what I'm struggling with is that in the previous episode where we talked about how it was kind of like, why would I go to a white affinity space? And then uh comparing it to what I've heard about and what I imagine a black infinity space is, and that I'm uh and overcoming that, like, all right, let me go. And then not wanting to not wanting to throw shade at it. Like these are these are people that were just in a room being white people, which usually means being pretty orderly, being a little rigid and stiff, and not as initially fun as maybe other rooms might be, as you all have been described and as I have experienced. And so. When I I don't want to I don't want to make fun of that. You know, these are that's why I keep using the word earnest. Like there's just a sincerity there, there's a serious desire. These are people in it. Um and yet there's not just like an immediate bonding that happens. Like, oh, look at us. We're white. This is our culture. It's there's more to overcome to get there. Maybe that's why I was so consumed with the time. Like white people don't just get together, yeah. Whoo, white, yeah, us. It's more like we need some time to break the walls down. We need some, we need some ice breaking. We need some, and we just didn't have that.

SPEAKER_07 44:34

So we were like, are you a west side white? Are you a east side white?

unknown 44:38

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 44:39

Can we identify?

SPEAKER_07 44:40

Ebo tribe lines.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

So yeah. It's very, it's very intellectual and not emotional. Um, which I feel like is culturally relevant. Yeah. Um and to go way back somewhere, LeBron said, Oh, now I get it. You're a group who thinks they're a bunch of individuals instead of a group. And so it's hard, to your point, to break down those walls or to walk in and say, hey, we have things in common. Right. Like there's not there's not an assumption of that.

SPEAKER_03 45:21

That is that is completely lacking. And so it takes work to get there. It either takes an understanding or a practice or a history or a context. You all, as I've said, you know, you're born into a struggle that you didn't ask for. And so you are automatically bonded with someone just by going, I see you. Like I've all the stuff you said, LeBron, I feel you. The whole that whole like white people don't have that. Unless they're from the same town and you recognize the same accent or something, you know, and there's just something about being othered that when you find one of you, it's like immediate.

SPEAKER_07 45:56

John, we don't have that. To that point, and I and I agree with that. I'm asking you now. It's a big ask, by the way. I'm asking you to participate in one or two white affinity spaces where it's already pre-established. So I want you to either go to a MAGA rally where it's all about white people and they're hop hollering and screaming, they're and they're they're eating. There's no, there's no to a clan rally. Because those are white affinity spaces. There, once you walk in, everyone knows why you're there. There's a common understanding. Then tell me what that experience is like.

SPEAKER_03 46:36

Challenge, not accepted. I thought I was gonna score. I'm like, yeah, I'm already going to the one Gillian invited me, so I'll go to that one. We're good.

SPEAKER_01 46:46

But but here's the question, right? Did Jillian invite you to facilitate or did Jillian invite you to participate?

SPEAKER_03 46:54

Yeah, just participate.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

I would check.

SPEAKER_03 46:57

I think I'll check with her.

SPEAKER_07 46:59

You better double check, John, because you speak for a living, so I'm just saying.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

Right. And here's what here's here's what I'm gonna ask. Having successfully participated in one, and I say that because if you are like nobody, nobody, I guarantee you, in the affinity space that we were in was looking at their watch. Nope. Didn't happen.

SPEAKER_07 47:27

Didn't happen. Nobody. Nobody, y'all know it's over, right? You know it's over, right? Like we just get warmed up.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

There was a conversation that was had by the facilitators, and they were like, okay, so yeah, we're just gonna push this, will be a little shorter, and we'll end at when we finish.

SPEAKER_04 47:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:55

Excuse me. But if you were going in to facilitate the white affinity space, excuse me, um, what would that look like for you? Yes, John. As a as a but but here's here's why I asked, because you for a living, you consult and facilitate DEI conversations, leadership conversations, and so you have purposely been in a f in a space that is heterogeneous, not homogeneous, but I think I think that you are being asked to step into a leadership space that's homogeneous, um, that you may or may not have a lot of experience with. And so what do you think that should look like? Or what did you think, what did you think? I and I get the outsider not being an educator, but what did you think that affinity space was gonna look like before you got in the door? Before you were worried about it running under or over time, right? What did you think that was gonna look like, and how does that influence what you think this next one is gonna look like?

SPEAKER_03 49:21

I I really didn't, I had no idea. I'd never been to one. I didn't know how many people would be in the room, I didn't know what we were gonna talk about. I had zero idea. So I walk in the room, there's six or seven of us, there's an agenda, there's someone in charge, and we introduced each ourselves, and I think I think the I think it was introduce yourself and maybe one uh insight that you'd have from the day kind of thing. So it didn't, I didn't have a set expectation in my mind, so there was nothing to meet. And frankly, with whatever's next, now you talk about my day job, it's like step one is who's in the room, who are these people, why are they here? I'm not gonna I'm not gonna bring any agenda before I understand who who's here, why are you here? And that's the only way I can come up with anything intelligent to do or say. Um unless I'm handed a topic and say this is what we're gonna talk about. Okay. But yeah, I have no idea.

unknown 50:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 50:23

These are very, these are very unsatisfying answers to me. I don't know what to do with it.

SPEAKER_07 50:31

I'm still interested, John. I'm still interested. Why? Because I feel like you're you're dodging something. You're dodging, I don't know if it's the obvious or you're dodging something like you can step into any room and just turn on and you're good. But it seems like you're not applying that ability and skill to to a white affinity space. Like, it sounds to me like you would be more comfortable in a black affinity space than you would a white affinity space. And that's what it sounds like to me. So am I am I right or wrong in that assumption? And what it sounds like to me. Have you met me, LeBron? Yes, I have.

SPEAKER_03 51:20

That's called a rhetorical question. I I get the sense that you're getting, LeBron. I'm having a hard time putting things into words because and I think it's because I'm trying to um, I don't know, man. I I want to respect the people in the room for what they're doing and still give credence to the fact that it was just kind of boring. You know, it was it was a real thing because what the element that you just described, LeBron, of me being able to turn it on. I I really felt in that situation like this is not a place for me to turn it on. I have I don't have the expertise these people have. I am not an educator, I'm a guest. And so I tried to speak insights about what I learned from, especially Dr. Glasgow's Glasgow's talk and everything. Like, but I I wasn't I wasn't working the room like I normally would, um other than just being friendly, you know. But um if I do know that if I had been invited to, by contrast, to your affinity space, even in the moment, I would have been probably oh, this is per I would have been given, I think I would have been given to more, like, oh, you're here with us, like that. And this there was something on my mind that now it's teasing out. I was in Charlotte with my colleague who happens to be white, and there was a hibachi restaurant within walking distance of our hotel. We're like, let's go do it, you know, Benny Hanna style. Yeah, you know, the dude in the middle. Yep. And as we get seated, we look around the restaurant, and there's like six stations of with the chefs doing the thing and flames and people clapping. And Brunt Brian, my colleague and I look around and notice, like, oh, we are literally the only white people here. All right, cool. You can kind of see it eventually on our face. Now we're in a you, like you shape, right? And we're kind of on the if this is the you, we're like right here. So black couple, male, female over here to our right. Yeah, black couple, male, and female over here, black family, male, female, couple kids. Um he orders sake, and he and I are talking like this, okay? Yes. And I'm I'm noticing how insulated we are from everybody else. And I'm being very deliberate, like going, oh hey, ma'am, like, oh, how is that? And this guy over here, he said on the other side of the U was yelling about the sake we ordered. Right. And I was like, Do you want some? Seriously, I got it. You want some? And I'm pouring one. And and I sensed in my colleague a little like, wait, what's happening? And I in my mind, I'm like, dude, this is this is not a white space. This is a black space right now. We don't do, oh, the two of us talking. This is us. Like, hey, what's it like? And so I guess it's it's all part of this theme where white spaces are typically individuals. Let's talk, let's be order. You get a you know, black space is more us, we, what's going on over there? Let's talk to this person over what's happening. Right. Let's not look at our watches, let's be present with who's around us, you know. Um, so that was an that was a bit of a microcosm of a white, a white affinity space at this Benny Hanna location inside a black affinity space, and and me being aware of the different way we operate. We operate different. Right.

SPEAKER_07 54:46

Now, you know what's interesting in in this conversation right now is that Antonio and I, we talk to white people for a living. So we are white people whisperers, but then you put us in a black room and it's no difference. We're good. But John, you have so much flavor that your flavor naturally happens in people of color um people of color um groups, spaces, spaces, thank you. That's the word I was looking for. But then you struggle, like you stick out in all white spaces because you have too much flavor, and you haven't figured out how to process your white flavor in a white environment. Bro.

SPEAKER_03 55:37

I feel like you're just that's for free. Bro, where do I Venmo the check for the therapy session? Because my God, bro.

SPEAKER_01 55:47

But it's it's it's a fascinating um sort of look. Like, if you had come into the people of color affinity space, you would have been playing that overseer role. Like, that wasn't the place for you to be. If you had gone to the Winston C Dobie, you wouldn't have been playing the overseer role, just by natural. And had we had call it 45 minutes that was scheduled for affinity spaces at SoCalposas, and had you gone into that space, I still don't think you would have come out with anything that wasn't orderly or intellectualized. I think that the um cultural piece of that is that you don't automatically do, right? Your friend was your your colleague was uncomfortable with the full interaction of the entire group because he did not know them as individuals. And you understood that the individual piece wasn't necessary for the building of community, right? And so what would 45 minutes or an hour have been had we started at one o'clock and gone till two o'clock? It wouldn't have mattered because there still wouldn't have been the community piece. Right. So that's what it's it's it's it's just interesting to me. Like I understand a little bit more why white faculty don't care for affinity spaces as a group, right? That's huge because they haven't had a good experience, but they haven't had any experience, right? Right? And what you like the reason that I brought this up and I wanted to bring it back, you when when it got mentioned on the last episode, I was like, oh, we were gonna talk about that. You are somebody, a reformed Christian, nationalist, fundamentalists, preacher, separate recovering former fundamentalist Christian, yes. All all of it. Um right by by your declaration, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Declaration, thank you. Um and are very much engaged with justice, equity, diversity, and inclusion, are very much engaged with identity, understanding that identity and culture. And you had difficulty being white in a white space in naming that and having that and participating in that in any way that wasn't intellectualized and individualized and surface. And that's why I was excited, right? LeBron went to Ghana as a homecoming, as a as an inclusion, as people saying, Welcome home. And that was a cultural piece, it was a obviously an economic piece because they paid to go. It was a cult, it was a political piece because what does that say about Ghana? And what does it say about him? And I wanted to, I was very excited to contrast and have this conversation with the two of you.

SPEAKER_07 59:11

You set us up, John. I love it. He's a teacher, John, and he's a master teacher.

SPEAKER_03 59:19

Well, he is, and I'm seeing it more and more now. This and there's an intellectualizing of the whole thing. It it if I could make it super fundamental, the white affinity space is an intellectual, intellectual pursuit. Like on the front end, between paying attention to the time, being you know, very orderly about who gets a talk when, and uh, you know, respectful of those those kind of things. And what I learned is the the leader who was again freaking lovely. I keep feeling like I have to say, like, I'm not I'm not throwing shade at these individual people, right? And that facilitator was she's amazing. Yeah. She's she's great. Love her. She had a bingo game planned. She's and like it was we're gonna play bingo at the end. And like, and and I think if you could flip it, like let's start with that. Like, let's start with a even if we have no intellectual pursuit of anything, let's just like you all say when you start your classroom, it's not about the time, it's about the readiness, it's about the community and connection first. Right, yep. And then then you actually start making grounds. And is it isn't it interesting that the to me, the connection never happened, and therefore nothing really landed in my head anyway. And to bring it back to what you were saying, Antonio, I tell people this all the time in my day job. It's about connection. It's about connection. You if people feel connected to you, then they listen to what you have to say. And, you know, the that white affinity space is so intellectually first. It's not about connection, it's about doing things right. And, you know, that is the I think the sense that I got from people as they were speaking was, I'm really trying hard, man. Here's here's the report from from the Caucasian underground. I'm really trying hard. I'm really trying hard. Um, here's what I'm up against. Here are the things that I'm you know, they're I'm getting pushback on. And people like, oh yeah, I feel that. That's you know, but I don't think anyone said I feel that. That's that's not true, right? They didn't say feel that I feel that but I'm seeing the I'm seeing the method to your madness now, dude.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:25

Yeah, that was dope. That was dope. And now I have a conclusion I want to share because Antonio taught the lesson, and I'm the student. What I'm realizing that is that Sabah always says, LeBron, you talk too much about race on this podcast. Stop talking about race all the time. But I'm a product of my experience, so it's hard not to. Because I'm always trying to figure out ways to understand this this dynamic. From this conversation and the way Antonio kind of juxtaposed our two experiences, which was a master level move there, by the way, Antonio.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:02

Dude, that is like black belt. Yes, black belt, exactly.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:07

What I'm realizing is that white people are individuals who collectively oppress. So white people don't identify as white unless they are trying to have an object to oppress. That's what brings them together under the banner of whiteness. So no one, in my opinion, in that infinity space, were looking to oppress. So you're sitting around as individuals, like, what are we gonna talk about? But if you did go to a MAGA rally, then you would see whiteness. If you went to a clan rally, then you would see whiteness. So it's only when there's an object to oppress does that white thing exist. If there's no object there, everyone's then individuals.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:57

And I'm not even I'm kind of being funny about this, but I'm not really because I would uh that feels too singular. Like uh if we're singing if we're singing Swing Caroline, that's when the whiteness comes out. I mean, when don't don't doesn't don't know about a bop bop bop like a big group of white people in a bar. Okay, I gotcha, I gotcha. All right. So I mean there are what what would we collect around? I mean, it goes back to conversations we've had. Like what what culture do I have as a white person? Yes. And if it's not MAGA, if it's not the clan, what is it? Um, well, I can I can think of southern friends of mine and be like, it's country music. I'm not a racist, but it's country music, and it's you know, my my grandma and my grandpa, and our legacy here and our history. That's my okay, all right. That's one example, perhaps. Maybe we should shine some light on some of the stuff from grandma and grandpa that was probably terrible and heinous that you'd be embarrassed about if you're trying to be an ally. Um after that, what what do we gather around? Um maybe your lineage again, going back to all right, my side of the family came from this country. But that gets very thin, that gets very diverted over time. So you I I hear your point. I see it, LeBron. I just I'm squiggling around the idea of like, are uh is the only thing that brings us together oppressing people?

SPEAKER_07 1:04:24

Not the only. But it's a big one. I would say primary, not the only one. Okay. Because I struggle, and I'm letting Antonio speak. I just struggle because when I see these things, white people as in always see themselves as individuals. They never want to get say I'm part of this group or that group, or I don't want to really associate with white, I don't feel like I'm white. Unless it's collectively about oppressing someone, then that's when I see my interpretation of when I see it. I'm not saying it is, I'm just saying from my viewpoint. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:59

But a typical MAGA person doesn't think they're oppressing anybody. Sorry. Was that a real cough?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:08

That was because they but but the only thing I'll say about that is when they say make America great again, there's an inherent assumption that America was great at some point.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:21

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:21

And the only people that America has been great for is white people. And so, you know, when they talk about take it back to the Leave It to Beaver 1950s, cool, and nice catch, and segregation was still a thing, right? The GI Bill was still a thing, the Brasetto program was still a thing. You have all of these other people who were being denied their rights at the time when America was quote unquote great, right? And then white. People were going after each other because God forbid you were a communist or thought that the government should help everybody because then you were going to be blacklisted and economically put out of business. People who are MAGA may not understand or may be ignorant of the fact that they are promoting a racialized ideology, and they're still promoting that racialized ideology and getting upset when they can't.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:32

Yep. But they're completely detached from all those realities you just said. They're not consciously oppressing. They're participating in oppression.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:43

They like it when he says things that are racist. They love it. They cheer. They cheer when he says things that are violent and racist. So they are aware that what they are what they don't equate is the fact that they're all white. Because, right, it's normal. So whiteness isn't spoken of except by those people who can see it.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:13

Alright, John, you'll be at our next black affinity space, damn it, fine.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:17

I'll serve drinks, man. Can I just like roll around and like serve hors d'oeuvres and stuff?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:24

It does matter if you're black or white or Latino or Native American or Asian. And I want to say thank you if you have spent this time with us. Uh, because we're still works in progress and we're still trying to figure out what it means to be American. And I think we've got a pretty good grip on what it means to be human. But there's some question there too. So, as we always do, left on founders.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:52

Left on founders, baby. Left on founders. Thank you for joining us. Still got questions? Other things you want to say? Well, hit us up at threeforthefounders.com on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, or TikTok, or send us a text through Buzz Sprout. Remember to like and subscribe wherever you get your podcast and share the pod with someone you think can benefit from it or add to the conversation. Till the next time, Left on Founders. We out.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:23

Thank you for listening to the Three for the Founders podcast. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speakers' own and do not represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of any professional or academic institution. The material and information presented here is for general information purposes only. Listen at your own risk of becoming woke. Man, that was good. Dude, way to set us up, motherfucker.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:48

God damn, that was he tried to make it like, oh, we're just gonna do this little thing on the side. Like a little 30 minute, little bone, and then we get into this thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:58

Fucking manipulated the shit out of it, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:01

It's called bread doing bitch.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:04

Um it's called being Yoda. I'm just over here Luke Skywalker and all over the place. Not the Luke Skywalker you're thinking about either, LeBron.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:12

I I I really hey, he's running for Congress. Can we say this now? Luther Campbell is running for Congress in Florida. And he already done slap down um uh Amber Rose and Nick Cannon because they are just out of their asses talking shit. And Uncle Luke was like, I didn't go all the way to the Supreme Court and fight for the First Amendment, so you idiots can say shit. Thank you. You can say whatever you want to, however, there are consequences to your actions. Yes, there is and you should know a little bit more history than what you're saying. A little more dangerous. Uncle Luke. Uncle Luke, please be his That's how old we are.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:49

Campaign manager. I'm gonna have a sign in my yard. Don't stop, get it, get it. Luke to Campbell for Congo.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:58

You'll win with that one. Bro, you found it. You found it. Don't stop, get it, get it. Oh my goodness. No, but Antonio, I was legitimately when you said you wanted me to talk about this, I was like, okay, what I well, it's gonna be real boring. What do I talk about? Like, I had no idea there was this level. I had no idea. You know what I feel like? I feel like I just got abducted by aliens. And then you know how they talk about like the aliens, like, yeah, they put me under this white light, and then they probed me and they poked at me and they made weird little noises with their mouths, and they seemed to be delighted. It didn't hurt, but it didn't feel good. And then they and then they beamed me back down, and I felt light, and then I felt new and renewed, and I hope they come back. That's that's what just happened to me. I got I got I got abducted and probed by you motherfuckers, you benevolent.