Ep. 39 - Monuments and Monsters *Bonus*

April 20, 2026

Before we begin — a word of care. Today’s episode includes discussion of sexual assault, harm to children, and various forms of violence. Please listen in a way that honors your own wellbeing.

There’s a reason we build monuments — and a reason that word carries weight when it turns.

When Dolores Huerta speaks, the world listens. And when she confirmed what the New York Times spent five years investigating — that Cesar Chavez raped her and molested children — the world had to reckon with what to do next.

In Ep. 39, Antonio, Jon, and Lybroan don’t look away. They sit with the full weight of what it means when a hero falls — and what it reveals about who we hold accountable, how fast we move, and why some institutions survive scandals that would bury any one individual.

Chavez’s name came off buildings within 24 hours. Meanwhile, the Epstein files sit open. The Catholic Church writes checks. And certain politicians collect convictions like trading cards while their names go up on buildings instead of coming down.

The brothers work through the hardest version of the question: Can a bad person do good things? Where do you draw the line — and does it move when the artist is someone you love? When the community absorbing the shame is already carrying too much?

This one doesn’t tie up neatly. It’s not supposed to. And that’s the way it is.

Thanks for joining us. Still got questions? Other things to say? Hit us up at Three for the Founders on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, or TikTok and let us know. Til the next time...left on founders...we out! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Or today's bonus episode is about Dolores Huerta and the strength of women. It's about Cesar Chávez and the weakness of some men. And it's about how do we hold to the work that they did and let the people go. And so there are discussions of sexual assault. I think we touched on genocide, violence in a lot of different forums. And we just want you to know. So this is your trigger warning. And we hope you appreciate but not enjoy this conversation on Three for the Founders.

SPEAKER_04 0:47

We're brothers, we're happy and we're singing and we're colored.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Give me a high five. All right, cut and print. Beautiful guys. Dynomite. That it.

SPEAKER_03 1:02

Welcome to Three for the Founders, where brotherhood meets the breakdown. We've been having these conversations for years, and now you are invited to join us. We'll say the things you are afraid to say and ask the questions you've always wanted to ask. Three brothers, all truth, no filters. Let's go.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

What actually wanted to talk about now that we're warmed up. Yeah. Was and I talked to my mom about this this morning.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Yeah, I was gonna say suddenly the room got quiet. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

Well, Carolyn's in the in the room. The room got quiet uh a week and a half ago when Dolores Huerta confirmed that Cesar Chavez was a rapist and a child molester. And within 24 hours, um people were prying his name off of buildings, yeah, people were painting over his murals, the the holiday named after him was being changed to Farm Workers' Day, governments, individuals, and the speed with which I have to say she was believed, right? Because she's Dolores Huerta, right, which means she she had to have some status, but she also said, I haven't said anything for 60 years because I didn't want to damage the movement that we built, that we were building, the work was more important than me as an individual. Holy shit. And the Epstein files mention Donald Trump a billion times.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

But regardless of that, how many people I'll see his name being peeled off of the side of buildings.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

No, he's he's rushing to put it up as as often as possible. But how many people are mentioned in there and not one prosecution has happened? The only person in jail for for Epstein's crimes uh is Ghislaine Maxwell, a woman. Thank you. And uh we talked about you know the Michael documentary is coming out, and you know, to quote Cat Williams, he Michael Jackson was playing with them little children's and so how quickly or how slowly do we remove people who have done great things for the violations of humanity? And you know, there are a whole host of like it was super easy for me to take R. Kelly off my playlist. I'm still on mine, yeah. Okay. His music wasn't that good. The R? Oh I didn't say it was good music. No, no, no. I didn't say it wasn't good music. Okay, I was saying him uh uh uh trafficking and imprisoning, kidnapping, and sexually torturing girls made it real easy.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

Like I Yeah, his music wasn't good enough to overcome that. Gotcha, gotcha.

SPEAKER_03 4:23

No, okay, I got you now.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Yeah, nobody's music's good enough to overcome that.

SPEAKER_03 4:27

Except Elvis Presley, but go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

Michael Jackson's is Shamon.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Yes, yeah, I mean I don't know if that's the conversation we're having. Like, at what point do you stop listening to an artist? At what point do you, you know, based on their personal lives, uh, you know, the entire world of comedy that worshipped Bill Cosby all those years, you know, only a few comedians will even say his name. Um but I I just I just have to pause on this one, and I I think it's still staying within the conversation that we're having, though, but the strength of Dolores Huerta to shoulder that burden for six decades for the sake of the cause. I don't know if there's a more apt illustration of the strength of a woman than than that. Like someone saying, I will silently suffer for decades. Victim of the patriarchy, and it's just over and over and over again men in power taking advantage of exactly what all men seem to want at a primal level, which was sexual domination over women. Yep, the common denominator. It's so sad, man. It's so sad.

SPEAKER_03 5:48

Fail. My question is I don't have a stake in the game. I'm just trying to understand this. She helped in the game, she held it for 60 years to keep the for the sake of the movement. Yep. What made her now come out with this at this particular time? That's what I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

The New York Times was doing an investigative article. They've been investigating it for five years because two of the young women, two of the girls, let's not adultify. Thank you. Uh they were 12 and 13 when he started molesting them. Um and uh you know somebody knew. You know somebody knew a lot of people. I don't know how the New York I don't know how the New York Times got on it, but the New York Times has been investigating for five years. Got it. And at the end of their investigation, they went to her and they said, here's what we already know. Got it. What do you know? Okay. She still didn't, I I from what I understand, she still wouldn't have said anything.

SPEAKER_03 7:00

They wouldn't have.

SPEAKER_02 7:01

But they came and she confirmed it and said, and this is my story.

SPEAKER_03 7:05

Okay. Yeah. Totally, I get that. Now, my issue is like you look at Bill Cosby guilty. Apparently now Cesar Chavez guilty, uh R. Kelly guilty, and how they are punished versus the people in the Epstein files, the Catholic Church. Now, the Catholic Church has paid billions of dollars for raping little kids. And why is there still a Catholic Church? Why are people still Catholic? So you're gonna not play, you don't you don't want to mention Bill Cosby, you don't want to listen to R. Kelly, but you're gonna still be Catholic after hundreds of kids, thousands have been raped by religious people, that is where you lose me. Why Trump is still in office after 34 convictions and a million times in the Epstein file, and why they won't release the names in the Epstein file and while no one's been prosecuted, like you have to be convicted first. Sejar Chavez likely did those things, but has he been convicted of those things? And how do you so quickly erase all the things he's done when other people are given either the benefit of the doubt or at least some time for it to have it examined? That's why I'm wondering.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Well, LeBron, you you know, you've said these things before. Yeah. These are the and I'm so glad you brought up both the Catholic Church and the Epstein Files and Trump in the same in the same thought because they're both religious. They're both religions. Trump Trumpism is a religion, it's a cult. Catholicism is a religion and it's cultee. Yes. You know, and so the it's so easy to prosecute quickly in the court of public opinion a single brown man who is no longer here, or even if he was here. You know, it's it's so easy to just go, yeah, take his name off. But the Catholic Church and Trump are systems of power, and there are too many people reliant on those systems, the people in charge and the people who benefit from them. You know, think about all the families who go to church and feel like, you know what, yes, I don't agree with the raping of little boys by priests, but also here's a lovely priest. And when I burn a candle here for my Aunt Edna, who's sick, I really believe that through my faith, God is gonna do something. Like they don't want to lose that system. But you're not, I think people in general aren't attached to any system when it comes to Cesar Chavez to a single brown man.

SPEAKER_02 9:41

Oh, yeah, yeah, that's not true.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_02 9:44

I mean that so Cesar Chavez, right? The Chicano Studies Center at UCLA is named the Cesare Chavez Center for Chicano Chicano and Chicano Studies. Um, and that's just one.

SPEAKER_04 9:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

He's got he he before this all came out, he had it more murals across Los Angeles than Kelby. Sure. Thank you. And and and so what the the UFW did, what the Lora Suerta and and César Chavez did, right, on the backs of Filipino farm workers, which is a whole different aspect of the story, can't be diminished to just one brown man.

SPEAKER_04 10:23

Right.

SPEAKER_02 10:23

Right. And so the reason I brought this up again, right, J.K. Rowling is out here saying that any money that she makes from this new Harry Potter television show is gonna go to anti-trans legislations and organizations as she fights, quote unquote, for women, um, when really she's just trash. And yet the books are about inclusion and the books are about understanding, and the books are about standing up for what is right. And so there is one question which is do you appreciate the art while disregarding the artist, or do you have to let it all go because there's some piece of it that says, if I enjoy it, I'm supporting it.

unknown 11:14

Right.

SPEAKER_03 11:15

Oh, that's a slippery slope.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

We know obviously Pam Bondi is supporting Donald Trump. We know that all of those people in the Epstein files are supporting, and if not financially right, emotionally and culturally, they are pushing not to have this stuff come out. Like, I don't know what he's got on Lindsey Graham, but he's got some third graders on Lindsey Graham, that's what he got. Right. The Catholic Church is the wealthiest organization on the planet.

SPEAKER_03 11:47

Yep. We know who's number two, but Antony already addressed that, so go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Apple? No. Oh, sorry. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Well, I want to go back. Um like I I appreciate you pushing me back, especially, and I forgot about the very deeply personal connection your family has with the Cesar Chavez program, especially at UCLA. And and I don't mean to diminish the importance of that, and there are plenty of people, especially in California, especially in Southern California and Central California, that see have have been raised, myself included, as Cesar Chavez is this iconic figure that is, you know, Mount Rushmore when it comes to people who were for the people. I guess what I'm saying is there's white culture, the dominant systems in place aren't it aren't connected to that. You know, that but the Catholic Church, Trump, Epstein, this the the systems of power that they would collapse. Like they would collapse if and didn't someone say that about the Epstein files, like we can't release all this, the whole thing, it's the whole thing's gonna collapse. We're like, yeah, let it let it go. Let the chips fall. Um I guess I'm talking about scale and you know, the scale of these things and there being a religious aspect of it.

SPEAKER_02 13:06

And I I don't I don't disagree. I can understand that, and the speed with which uh he's been removed from California to Texas speaks to scale, but it also speaks to a willingness to let him go. Right? Give me any reason that uh right. The conversation that I was having with my mom, and she made the comment, she said, had Dolores Huerta said something when it happened, they would have destroyed her. They would have destroyed her with him. Had Dolores Huerta said something 30 years ago, right before or right after he passed, he passed in 93, they would have destroyed her. They would have said, Why did you say something now? The fact is that she is 96 years old and she didn't say something, she confirmed something and then told her story. And because she is who she is, she has to be that in order for this to be a reckoning. For people to believe her. For people to believe her, because R. Kelly was in them streets and people knew. Huffy was in them streets and people knew. People knew. Bill Cosby was in them streets and people knew. People knew. Michael Jackson was in them streets and people knew. People knew, yep. And they covered for him. Yeah. And they said, Oh, that's terrible.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Well, especially when you when you what I respect about, especially about the Lotus Suerta is that this was a movement that she wasn't getting rich off of. In the other examples, you whether it's R. Kelly or Michael Jackson or Bill Cosby or whomever, JK, these these are people getting rich off of keeping that person in power, you know? And and so that a wealthy person employs a lot of, especially a wealthy entertainer employs a lot of people. A lot of people, yeah. Whereas the United Farm Workers uh, it was UFW, right? Yeah, United Farm Workers Movement. That was not a money movement for individual people. That was not an entourage of folks making millions. I'm guessing, I'm assuming. Um I think that's fair assumption. Yeah, yes. So the righteousness of the cause of her not wanting to speak up is so much greater than the someone not wanting to speak up because, well, I like Michael Jackson's music. No, I want to keep getting paid. So I'm not gonna say anything.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

But the piece of it that that strikes me, and you know, the piece of it that strikes me is I don't have Michael Jackson on any of my playlists. Like I I literally removed him. My cousin literally was the the president of his fan club.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

Wow. Damn. He pulled out the bona fides, okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

Well, I but I but I only say that to say if a Michael Jackson song comes on, if Thriller comes on, you know, uh Billy Jean beat it, you're gonna hit it. Unless I check myself, I'm going to sing along. And I'm gonna sing along because the emotional landscape of my life is tied to that music. And am I gonna go see this biopic that's coming out because it is attached to the family, which means that they get to protect his legacy. Yeah. And there are enough people who are still going to support that that they don't have to reckon with it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

So is it's not it's you're standing on principle, it not necessarily the net effect that you're gonna have on the Michael Jackson estate. You're just saying on principle. And but here's the thing, like where's because I am more of the I'll listen to every artist, I don't care what they've done. I it's art. And where's the line? But what I'm starting to think is we're having this conversation now. Oh, you know where the line is? Kids. That's the line. Jerry Lee Lewis. Right exactly, marrying your 13-year-old cousin, right? Elvis. Um uh Elvis you married a teenager.

SPEAKER_02 17:17

No, he didn't.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Yeah, he didn't. Priscilla was like 17 or something when he was 16 or 17, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_02 17:22

14 when they met, she was 19 or 20 when they got married.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Oh, well, that's fine, Megan Kelly. I'm sorry, my bad. One of my things. Well, Megan Kelly was like, I know I shouldn't even be saying this, but at least they were 15 in the Epstein files. That's very different than being 12. I'm like, are you hearing yourself right now, Megan Kelly? Come on. But I'm what I'm saying is in relate related to this conversation, it's kind of like, look, man, everybody we esteem to some degree had a dark, everybody's got a shadow of self. Everybody's got a dark side. So, how puristic do you want to be when it comes to I can't consume this person's art because fill in the blank? We could talk about Van Gogh or Van Gogh, I think I was properly pronounced, being this or Schubert. I mean, he died of syphilis as a lot of people did back then, which meant who's sleeping around with who knows? Like, what moral line do we draw? And like I'm saying, maybe it's a wide road until you start messing with kids. And that's when we draw the line and say, fuck no, I'm not listening to your shit because you were sex trafficking, our sex trafficking R. Kelly. But is that worse than Cosby drugging adults?

SPEAKER_02 18:32

I think I I guess my road is a little bit wider. If you actively caused harm as your entertainment, you gotta go.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

So if the entertainment itself causes harm.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

No. If if what you do in the time that you're not creating art is hurting other people, you gotta go. You gotta go.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

All right. Well, that eliminates a lot of the music library that exists. Um probably most of it.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

I don't I don't know that, but uh, but but but what you do about those you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

Like two live crew. Like would you think two live crew is like Boy Scouts out on the road? Hey, hey, ease up.

SPEAKER_03 19:11

Ease up, my brother. Ease up. You could take Michael and R, but leave Uncle Luke alone.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Bro, bro, I mean but so but we're right, even if so, NWA. Blow the whistle. NWA what?

SPEAKER_02 19:27

Right? Yeah. I'm saying NWA was famous for the thing, but so were the go-go's. And were well people being hurt, and that's it. No, no, no, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about by Felicia, I'm talking about Dre beating up, you know, D Barnes in a in a bathroom. Right. And not saying anything to F. Gary Gray. Like, has he has he made restitution? Sure. Sure. Yeah. And like, I'm not talking about holding somebody accountable. Brian Stevenson always says, you know, nobody is, nobody should be judged by their worst act.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

Right.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

And I think there's a certain amount of truth in that. I also think that if that's your lifestyle, I'm a judge you. Puff, I'm a judge you.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

It's a body of work thing.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

Michael Jackson, I'm gonna judge you. J.K. Rowling, I'm gonna judge you. Louis C.K., am I gonna judge you? Like, you were kind of a dick, and you probably would have kept being a dick.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Yeah, probably exposed. As you got called. Uh-huh. I mean, so many of these artists, so many of these artists, comedians, especially when you bring up Louis C.K., they are fulfilling a fantasy that they had since they went through puberty. 11 and 12-year-old boys who weren't the popular guys, they weren't they weren't the jocks, they weren't big and physically dominating or necessarily good looking. They were funny, they were creative, so they were kind of like, oh, isn't he cute? And then they get some power and some money, and pretty soon they got women coming after them. And now they are like making up for lost time. And, you know, so it's it's it's not um, I guess what I'm I'm just narrating what I see happen over and over again in the creative arts. The ones who screw up and get caught and then actually learn the lesson and have the reckoning that's necessary and apologize and come out the other side different, you can respect that, man. Um, but it it's so rare. I mean, it's rare this it's always because they get caught. And that goes back to the point.

SPEAKER_03 21:42

I know Antonio doesn't agree, but that's why I say people are complex. So you can put you can be an artist and you have a good side and a bad side. So I'm just curious if if what you do, you do good for the world and you do bad, do you weigh the bad more than you weigh the good?

SPEAKER_00 22:01

I think math man, it's got to be on balance. It's like body of work, what outweighs the other, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 22:06

But but that's a personal decision, though.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

Yeah. If what you do is not an act but a pattern, wasn't your worst day.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

It's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

I didn't take Chris Brown off my playlist. I did for a minute, but for a minute, yeah. But but that's what I'm saying, right? Yeah. Did he have an issue? Yeah. Did he do some shit he shouldn't have done? Yeah. Does he do it? Does he is he still doing it? I don't think so.

SPEAKER_03 22:39

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

I mean, let's be fair. I didn't have a lot of Chris Brown on my playlist. To begin with, unless you have to say But but my point is, if what you are doing is a repeated, is a repeated injuries and usurpations. Usurpations. To quote Thomas Jefferson's raping ass.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Speaking of body of work. Jeez. Body ever. Work too many bodies.

SPEAKER_02 23:09

How do you father seven children on an enslaved woman and then keep them enslaved? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:16

Isn't he on the isn't he on the money? Is he on some money? Is he on one of the currency? Jefferson?

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Yeah. Jefferson is uh he's the hundred. Isn't he? No, that's Franklin.

SPEAKER_03 23:24

He's a Jefferson's a two dollar bill. Oh, they made his ass a two dollar bill. Okay, good. All right. It ain't in circulation anymore, anyways. I mean I mean it's in circulation, but yeah. Isn't it there? Question is this like I understand drawing those lines, but what are we cherry picking the crimes?

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Look at he's got a Washington. No, that's Jefferson. Oh, he got the two.

SPEAKER_03 23:48

That's the Jefferson? Was that the Hamilton? I can't see that far.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

It's Jefferson. Hamilton's on $10. A $10 founding father without a father. Got a lot, father.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

Oh, that's catchy. You should write that down. So that's the right order.

SPEAKER_03 24:04

Picking and choosing crimes. No. Because if it's crimes against humanity, then I say leave America then. Because it's a repeated crime over and over again. Slavery, oppression.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

Who's the one person? Who's the one person, LeBron?

SPEAKER_03 24:20

What? Who's the one person?

SPEAKER_02 24:24

We're talking about how do you Oh, not institutions.

SPEAKER_03 24:26

You're now you're going to just individuals. The easy talk.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

I started with individuals. I'm not going to that was the question. Okay, gotcha. That's where we started. Right. And I'm saying that to say if you try to solve every problem in the world at the same time, you're not going to do shit. I was talking about A, the strength of the Lora Suerta. Yes. And B the accountability for César Chavez in conflict or in contrast with the non-accountability for all of these other folks. Got it. Because people are emotionally attached to what they have provided for the world.

SPEAKER_03 25:09

Got it. So then let me clarify this question, Antonio. Sure. Based on the current information, where do you where does Cesar Chavez sit with you personally right now?

SPEAKER_02 25:25

He gotta go. I had this conversation. So the the question that I ask my students is, is Thomas Jefferson a great man? And when I told my mom that, she was like, that's not the question. The question is can a bad person do good things?

SPEAKER_00 25:49

And the answer is yes, a bad person can do good things. It still means they're a bad person, and what do you do with it?

SPEAKER_03 25:55

Or could it be a good person who did bad things? Or is it a bad person who sometimes did good things? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

Well, I would say one time. One time. One thing. Uh one thing. One time. One time. But I I really do have this, I really do have this debate. JK Rowling is a perfect example, and the funny thing is, she's alive. But am I holding her? Is it easier to hold her accountable because she's a woman?

SPEAKER_00 26:26

Well, you you're always good at bringing that angle into it. Uh uh genuinely. I mean, even it was an aside, I have to say this. When we met last week and LeBron, you couldn't because of because of I don't know, some school bullshit you're doing, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

Um some PhD or some what I don't even know.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

Whatever.

SPEAKER_02 26:44

Yeah, I don't even know what that is.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Um I was I report I was wearing my UCLA shirt and I reported to Antonio. I'm like, oh yeah, I'm wearing this even though we lost. And and Antonio was like, the the men lost? I was like, oh yeah, the women are playing too. Oh yeah, the men lost. Yeah, though the women are kicking ass. They're undefeated or something. Thank you. Number one, hello. Is there final four? Thank you. Oh, dude. Yes, yeah. And uh yeah, so I I appreciate Antonio you always bring that properly, uh bringing us back and keeping us within the guardrails.

SPEAKER_03 27:14

But still, where is he with where where are you where is he sitting with how are you feeling about it? How are you processing it? Because if you ask me something like Martin Luther the King or But Martin Luther King was cheating on Coretta all the time, he had hoes. Yes, and the FBI made sure he had hoes.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

He's got hose, he's got hoes in different area codes. Area codes. I had a dream. I have a dream, them hoes was in my room.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

And if you heard some of the recordings, oh my. Um, that's what I was gonna ask is about J.K. Rowling. Oh, go ahead, LeBron. What? No, no, go ahead. Are there transcripts of her talking about the or are there interviews? I want to hear her talk about this stuff. I've only read little clips of things she's go read her Twitter.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

Go read her Twitter. Really? Okay. She's public so here's the thing, right? They they say these things with their full chest. They're not when you have somebody who's that far off, they're not mumble mouthed about it. Dave said this, and we we jump down his throat. I speak from the eye, I jump down his throat about it, right? But his point was they don't see it the way you see it, otherwise, they wouldn't say what they're saying. Right. They see it as doing the right thing. J.K. Rowling, I definitely believe, feels that she is defending cisgender women against trans women.

SPEAKER_04 28:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

Without having any, I don't know, self-awareness.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

JK, show me show me on the bear where a trans man hurt you.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

Right. That she's there's there's something there. She did write Star Wars with shitty lightsabers, but it's a pretty good book. And it's about inclusion and it's about taking people where they are. Yeah. Luna Lovegood, Neville, like all of these characters who don't have any friends, and yet she's out here with her full chest saying that somebody should be marginalized.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Yeah. I'm gonna go read her stuff.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

Meaning, I want to hear it. No, I think. I want to hear it from the horse's mouth. And I'll get the horse's mouth. I called her a horse.

SPEAKER_03 29:42

Sorry, horses. No, no horses were harmed in the making of this. No horses.

SPEAKER_02 29:51

Yeah, man. So it just I I I but to answer your question, LeBron, like says that real easy for me to say he's dead to me. And that's the easy one because he's actually dead.

SPEAKER_03 30:10

I was gonna say literally literally or figuratively.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

Jefferson, is that an easy one? It is for me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

And it doesn't diminish the work that they did. To me, I mean, again, that I don't know if I'm shallow, but as an artist too, it's like Michael Jackson, like seminal. I mean, you can't you and I can I can subtract the person from the art, meaning just as objectively as I can be, like that is good art. The work Cesar Chavez did for workers amazing work, stellar. Some of the intellectual output of Thomas Jefferson is still stellar, intellectually also. I but I mean, but I do experience it from an artistic perspective, in the same way you're talking about Cesar Chavez, too. When I learned certain things about Billy Joel, when I learned certain things about Ray Charles, two men who I had emulated, I was like, I I experienced their music differently now.

SPEAKER_02 31:11

Which is like, oh besides the fact that he was a drunk and an asshole to his wife.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

That and he treated his drummer Liberty Davido like a piece of shit.

SPEAKER_02 31:23

And Liberty made him, and so not made him the guy the guy that the guy that like didn't come back, right? Like he just cut him loose. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

And and other things, you know. I mean, the the most recent uh three-part series about Billy Joel made me like him a little bit better because he seemed to have reckoned with his himself and he had a lot of self-awareness, which is great. But even Ray Charles stuff that I learned before Jamie, uh Jamie Foxx played him. Like I was like, oh man, I wish he was not an asshole to people. Shit. So made me enjoy the art less, so I experience it less. And I'm imagining, you know, what you're talking about with Cesar Chavez being dead. It's like, damn, that wasn't that used to be an emotional surge, like a source of pride, right? Like, yeah, that that name strengthened you. Now it's diminishes. That's that's tragic.

SPEAKER_03 32:13

But it's appropriate. The only thing that that that hurts me about the Cesar Chavez story is that when it's people of color, it's not the individual, it's the whole collective that's harmed. So that's that's hard for Latino people. So if they if something happens, if Michael Jackson happens, that's hard for all black people. We all get painted with that broad bush, broad brush. White people, you can do stuff individually. Like Epstein can do stuff, be the worst sex trafficker in the world. Madoff could be the biggest criminal in the history of the world, but no one blames all the Jewish people. They just blame those individuals.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

And they just killed Epstein in his cell.

SPEAKER_03 32:57

So there you go. So that's the that's the part I hate is that the the broad brush is that we're the whole community, the whole culture is then attached to that one person's digressions.

unknown 33:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

So this episode is gonna come with a trigger warning.

SPEAKER_03 33:17

My trigger. My trigger.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

I learned I can't say that in front of my kid. Watch, this is the part where my dad explains he has black friends, so he can say it.

SPEAKER_03 33:32

You damn straight son. Thank you. I'm just emotionally distraught right now. I'm all fucking. Thank you for listening to no matter what y'all say, I love me, Michael Jackson. I love R. Kenley, I love Bill Cosby, what he did for black people, and I love Siby Charza Cesar Cesar Chavez, no matter what you say. They got transgressions, great, but what they've done and contributed for me, um I'm not down with them, but I appreciate what they've contributed. That's all I can say.

SPEAKER_02 34:03

That's I mean, but honestly, that's the question. You can appreciate the work. Because you're right, Bill Cosby, like Bill and well, let's let's be honest, Bill and Camille.

SPEAKER_03 34:15

And Camille, for sure. Don't forget to Camille. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 34:19

No, we're funding the sweater industry in business. Like they were funding HBCUs, they were contributing to all kinds of things.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

He helped my friend, a jazz musician who was here fleeing the war in Nicaragua. He helped him not get deported back to Nicaragua. He donated to his because he's a fan of jazz. So yeah, he did a lot for a lot of good for people. He did.

SPEAKER_01 34:44

Yeah. And he raped people. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 34:47

He did. He did both of those things. Both of those things. That's why people are complex.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

Listen, nobody is all one thing. Right. Nobody is all one thing. But I tell you, thank you for listening and watching Left On Founders.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

That's I mean.

SPEAKER_03 35:11

Thank you for joining us. Still got questions? Other things you want to say? Well, hit us up at threeforthefounders.com on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, or TikTok. Or send us a text through Buzz Sprout. Remember to like and subscribe wherever you get your podcast and share the pod with someone you think can benefit from it or add to the conversation. Till the next time, Left on Founders. We out.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

Thank you for listening to the Three for the Founders podcast. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speakers' own and do not represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of any professional or academic institution. The material and information presented here is for general information purposes only. Listen at your own risk of becoming woke. And we've teased out the reasons why. And John owes LeBron $760 for an hour and a half of therapy.

SPEAKER_02 36:16

Wait, how come where's my cut? What's happening?

SPEAKER_00 36:19

Yeah, you're the facilitator.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

You like you can you can split Venmo. Like we're Venmo.

SPEAKER_03 36:24

Set it up anyway. So yeah, split the Venmo.